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Mar. 24th, 2005 @ 10:49 am Phoney War
I noticed matrixgamer's argument for this turn, and I am conflicted. There is some very cool stuff that progresses the War, but also something very troubling.

"In 1939 Hitler overruns Poland in a Blitzkrieg attack aided by supers. Following this Europe engages in a phoney war suring which supers of both sides fight ineffectively. In Spring 1940 Hitler pulls off another successful Blitz, this time taking France, Belgium and Holland out of the war.

Reasons
Supers are all nice and fine but Germany has tanks and planes to do the job - which they do nicely.
Since both sides have supers, it stands to reason that they will cancel one another out.
For the Germans to be a threat they need to have some big successes early in the war."

The idea that the supers cancel each other out is, in my opinion, a cop-out. The game GODLIKE has already done, in detail, a world where Supers cancel each other out in WWII, and most every superhero world in literature that I've seen follows the same assumption.

In world_of_titans, we have the opportunity to really blow the lid off of WWII. It seems to me that the momentum of the game is pointing more towards a WWII that rampantly diverges from the main timeline. (With the stuff with Japan, China, and the multiple arguments for German supers as a powerful force.) I'd be very interested in exploring a world where history is rather different, but we can end up with a still-recognizable world in 2005 (or whenever we start gaming). While I love the moves for Blitzkreig making early advances, I think emplacing the phoney war as being ineffectual may stand in the way of WAAH, CRAZY! funness with supers in WWII.

Not to say that a future argument can't say "The phoney war of 1939 and 1940 gets turned on its head when Germany unleashes Der Fleigermensch and level London in a matter of weeks." But I'd rather not have to go through all the trouble of re-writing that portion (if it is viewed as a re-write rather than a "Yes, and").

Well, that's my much more than $.02
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Teacups
ninja_turbo:
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From:matrixgamer
Date:March 24th, 2005 05:41 pm (UTC)

Who? Me, cop out?

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I've put it to the great dice gods to strike down my version of reality. You can also make an argument that is in competition with my argument so there will be a dice rolling competition.

In my rules, logically inconsistent arguments are rolled for by their maker. They roll just like normal. When a roll fails the argument drops out of the competition. The rolling continues until only one argument is left. In this way as many as a hundred arguments can compete.

Chris Engle
Hamster Press
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From:ninja_turbo
Date:March 24th, 2005 07:37 pm (UTC)

Re: Who? Me, cop out?

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I know that, Chris. I've been playing and running your Matrix games for years now.

However, I'm not going to ret-con my argument to explicitly conflict, I was just expressing my difference of opinion on the directionality of the game. The dice will be our judges.
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From:matrixgamer
Date:March 24th, 2005 07:42 pm (UTC)

Re: Who? Me, cop out?

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You don't know how cool it is to have someone say this. I've been so conditioned to say "This is a Matrix Game. You've probably never heard of them." that someone playing them for years is a dream. That and you knew what I was doing without me doing what I just did (explaining rules - boring!) I long for the day when I do this and someone tells me why I'm stating the obvious. Then my work will truly be done.
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From:taocowboy
Date:March 24th, 2005 06:56 pm (UTC)
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I'm for super-wackiness!!! Screw history.. we make our own!!!!!

(Steps back from the coffee)

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From:todfox
Date:March 24th, 2005 10:13 pm (UTC)
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I feel the same way in principle but I am not overly concerned by this argument -- we don't know if it will occur or how strong it will be when Coyote rolls for it. Overall, I can easily see this being worked with in future rounds when we want things to explode -- we are planning on something like 10 WWII rounds, right? For example, if this were the first war fought with supers as major players I could see that tactically the world powers might now know how to handle them at first but later could begin using them to major decisive advantage.

Also, I'm glad I'm not the only one who wishes he knew more German now that he's playing this game ...
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From:taocowboy
Date:March 24th, 2005 11:48 pm (UTC)
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yeah,I'm not too worried about it either. Heck the biggest change in the PAcific that I have in mind doesn't directly involve supers at all.
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From:advocatejack
Date:March 25th, 2005 05:53 pm (UTC)

I tend to agree

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That this argument is kind of a "cop-out."

Course I also think its terribly hard to pull off given the changes supers have already made in the world so far. I mean, a super can keep the Chinese Empire going but they aren't going to affect the ETO in WWII? I'd rate that fairly weak myself.

But we'll see and all that.

For my part I'm mostly going to leave WWII to other folks and focus on the Titan Family, SoF, and Antithesis. These arguments will involve WWII, but only tangentially in most cases.

That said, I am expecting to get a "wow" out of a few of them due to the nature of the changes I will be making.
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From:todfox
Date:March 25th, 2005 11:11 pm (UTC)

Re: I tend to agree

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I definitely have some plans for the SoF in WWII, and also some plans for the SoF, Noah, and a certain monster rainstorm in the 1950s ...
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From:todfox
Date:March 26th, 2005 09:31 pm (UTC)

Re: I tend to agree

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p.s. I totally think Rosie the Riveter needs to 'join up' and become a good enlisted Son of Freedom.
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From:advocatejack
Date:March 28th, 2005 05:11 am (UTC)

Re: I tend to agree

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Folks are encouraged to expand the roster of the SoF (I've adding a few heroes myself in upcoming turns, starting with Thunderbird who appeared last turn). Personally I think we could use a few more "iconic" type heroes to fit some of the classics (we currently have no Sea King type, nor an Alien, a Warrior Woman (maybe Hippolyte [sp?] could join), no Super-Patriot, etc...) as the group seems to be filling the Avengers/JLA niche in the world thusfar.
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From:matrixgamer
Date:March 28th, 2005 02:10 pm (UTC)

Re: I tend to agree

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Can't blame me for trying. I left it up to the dice gods to tell us if the previous denial of supers (which I tried to establish in the 1920's) was tenable once war started. It appears that it is not - which is why I've dived in and used supers to spearhead the Blitz in my next argument.

What I wonder is what are the Red Supers doing...